re: What do you fee about this one?

[vincesf]

What do you feel about this one?

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/cto/2716420250.html

Should I wait for one needing less repairs or is this an opportunity?

Thanks

vincesf

[Doug Liedblad]

You need to look at it in person or at least have more high quality photos.

Do you have the skill or the time to learn the skills needed to do this yourself. Is it a salvage title?

If the chassis is straight and it doesn't need to be reskinned the parts are bolt on repairs.

With the proper tools and time you can probably measure any bending of the chassis. A frame shop would be the best place to determine that.

Generally when a wing is torn off it pulls the mounting screws out of the aluminum skin and enlarges the holes. These can usually be repaired.

The parts aren't cheap but if the chassis is undamaged then it looks like a resonable deal.

Add up the cost of the replacement parts plus your time to remove and install. I don't know what repair shops charge for this kind of work but I would guess it will be several thousand.

Then add in for hidden damage which may or may not be there but you must assume it is.

[moosetestbestanden]

Depends on where you are and how much time you have. If I were close I'd go give it a look. If the frame is tweaked then the repairs become geometrically more difficult, time consuming and expensive. And that may be difficult to determine.

Note that Caterham will sell you their 'Starter Kit' here (http://www.caterham.co.uk/assets/html/showroom/Caterham%20Starter%20Pack.pdf). Last price I saw was around £8000 ($12,500 +/-). So you take all the bits off of the crasher and move them over to the replacement chassis (necessary due to damaged original hint hint) and presto, a virtually new car.

Of course, you may want to junk that heavy Zetec (and the mush seats) in the process, so that you'd have a real superlight :D

[Doug Liedblad]

I assume it has the Raceline wetsump so be sure to look at that closely. Any cracks and it's scrap. A new one with shipping is $1000± all by itself.


As Chris says, any chassis damage and the costs can go up very quickly.

If the Chassis is straight then I'd wonder why the owner is selling it rather than fixing it.


'There is damage to the nose, hood, radiator, and front suspension' Just this could be several thousand dollars in parts but not enough to make it not worth the owners effort to repair.

Just look close.

Zetecs are fine engines and if what he says is correct it's as good or better than a stock Duratec.

[vincesf]

Thank you for the advice on this one. It is appreciated.

vincesf

[magnusfeuer]

"The right rear wheel hub bolts were sheared away from the DeDion tube"

Quite a bit of stress there.
Check the DeDion tube ears' welds for cracks. Check the tube itself for creasing/deformation.

Check the watts linkages' mount points in the chassis for stretching.

The car has CA registration, which means that you don't have to go through DMV hell to register a new one. Although the certificates apparently last quite a while these days, it is still a hassle.

Also: Nicely specced car.

I would get an experienced local 7 guy to have a look at the car before you buy. It minimizes the risk of a post-purchase "oh shit" moment when you start to look things over.

/Magnus F.

[Doug Liedblad]

Perhaps just replace the DeDeion tube with a new one. A proper check might cost more than new.

Just get new ears and toss the old. Too many unknowns.

As Magnus suggests check the Watts link mounting points and all the hardware.

The holes might look OK but put a long bolt in and see if it's perpenticular to the chassis.

The mounting boss and it's weld can bend in a crash. I have seen this in another members car.

[rzempel]

Im only 20 minutes away from this car, today Wish I had time to look before I go home tomorrow :-(

[moosetestbestanden]

Im only 20 minutes away from this car, today Wish I had time to look before I go home tomorrow :-(

Doesn't have to be tomorrow (today) does it?

I'm intrigued but I'm up to my neck (and beyond my wallet) in the current project. First and foremost because any offer on that car, which clearly has been heavily damaged despite the description, should be more around $8000 - $10000, not the asking price.

I think the CC starter kit & this donor would make for a very nice project and virtually new car for around 20 gees, maybe a bit more if one wanted good bits like Nitrons, inboard front suspension, CSR front wings etc. The starter kit can be ordered to a custom (Caterham says 'bespoke' - gawd I HATE that word) specification. Race car anyone?

[Mike Bearden]

From reading the description, the seller knows what he has...and he has decided that it's better to let someone else deal with the cost and questions. The insurance paid him off. It appears to be track damage to me...that looks like a slick on the right rear. Might be a perfect opportunity for personal bankruptcy or a fun rebuild. Worth a look though.

Craiglist is just a scary deal these days.

[rzempel]

I looked at the car this morning. The owner mostly drove it on the track, hence the slickery. Unfortunately, one morning he decided to drive it into town for gas. Along the way, he put his foot in it and the back end broke loose. As it started to come around, he over corrected and the back end came around the other way. He hit a curb, and rolled the car. He was knocked unconscious, spent several days in intensive care for broken back, crushed shoulder, and broken ARM. Insurance totalled the car, and he bought it back--so it *does* have a salvage title.

Visually, I can see the repair will require new nose, radiator, right skin, bonnet, rear skin, dedion stubs, right spindle plate (or whatever that piece is called), front wing, wing stay, and rear wing. The impact bent the spindle plate, severed the bolts holding it to the dedion flange, bent the clang, and bent and broke frame tubing behind the drivers seat. All the other parts mentioned above were mangled as well.

All in all, I think this would be a good deal for me, but I have access to a talented race car fab and repair shop.

The owner set his price based on what he believes the drive train and undamaged parts are worth. He, and especially his family, have no interest in repairing the car.

I took a few photos of the damage, but only have cell phone connectivity right now. If there's interest, I will post photos tomorrow.

Randalll

[rzempel]

I looked at the car this morning. The owner mostly drove it on the track, hence the slickery. Unfortunately, one morning he decided to drive it into town for gas. Along the way, he put his foot in it and the back end broke loose. As it started to come around, he over corrected and the back end came around the other way. He hit a curb, and rolled the car. He was knocked unconscious, spent several days in intensive care for broken back, crushed shoulder, and broken ARM. Insurance totalled the car, and he bought it back--so it *does* have a salvage title.

Visually, I can see the repair will require new nose, radiator, right skin, bonnet, rear skin, dedion stubs, right spindle plate (or whatever that piece is called), front wing, wing stay, and rear wing. The impact bent the spindle plate, severed the bolts holding it to the dedion flange, bent the clang, and bent and broke frame tubing behind the drivers seat. All the other parts mentioned above were mangled as well.

All in all, I think this would be a good deal for me, but I have access to a talented race car fab and repair shop.

The owner set his price based on what he believes the drive train and undamaged parts are worth. He, and especially his family, have no interest in repairing the car.

I took a few photos of the damage, but only have cell phone connectivity right now. If there's interest, I will post photos tomorrow.

Randalll

[Elv15]

Yes, pics please...

Also what is a clang?

[rzempel]

Sorry. My "smart" Android it pretty stupid for handling the forum...hence the double post and mysterious "clang" that was supposed to be "flange". I also forgot to mention the steering rack may be broken and the roll bar is slightly bent.

Randalll

[magnusfeuer]

Toss the De-dion tube and all its associated parts.

It worries me that you have broken frame tubing. It would have cracked either where the central A-arm is mounted just at the front end of the wheel arch, or a bit higher up where the watts linkage boss is. In either case, you need to check the straightness of the frame and be prepared to straighten it or buy a new one.

It may be easier to get a starter kit and transfer everything over.

/Magnus F.

[Sean]

Just a thought here... I doubt the parts from one of the older imperial chassis would simply transfer over to a current starter kit, which I believe is now metric. :confused:

[Doug Liedblad]

Just a thought here... I doubt the parts from one of the older imperial chassis would simply transfer over to a current starter kit, which I believe is now metric. :confused:

You can order a chassis from Arch to the old spec and or just order a complete chassis. You could also send this chassis back to Arch and they will make it as good as new or better. Which is cheaper? There is really only the drive train to transfer anyhow.

Randall, did you notice if the sump was a casting (Raceline) and was it damaged?

With the damage Randall describes I would not buy at this price without the resources he has. Otherwise all you are really gettting is the engine, tranny and some scrap metal. Maybe a good LSD and leather seats.

What is the condition of the engine? It may run fine today but will it last? I am always suspicious of engines with unknown past unless the price makes it worth the risk.

There are probably other chassis mounting points that are bent, not enough to stand out without a frame shop measuring it, but enough they will need at least straigtening.

Any serious repair to the chassis is a skin off job. It can be done if you have the skills yourself or available as Randall does.

Recommend you PASS at this price.

If any of you are interested in a group buy to then part it out.. Some of the bits I am interested in if they are a 'bargain'. I am a sucker for bargains and sometimes pay the price.

[moosetestbestanden]

Did I say $8000 - $10000? Based on your report it's more like $5000 - $6000. There's not much left is there?

At risk of offending I can tell you (from personal experience) that for $12000 you can build a mighty fine Duratec (mighty fine indeed, or so I hope :D) - and save 40 - 50 kilos.

Cold slicks are a bitch.

[Roll a 7]

An interesting car @ the right price! Has very desirable specs.

[rzempel]

As promised, here are the photos I took. Bear in mind that they are meant to be a mnemonic for myself, rather than any specific documentation of the car.

Yesterday was a looong day--11 hours in the car, but that gave me plenty of time to consider the best way to attack this car. I firmly believe that the best solution is to start with a new frame. One, it removes the "salvage" stigma; and two, all the critical points will be where they should be. The current SB100 registration is worth exactly zero these days--as of Thanksgiving, DMV still had nearly 100 unissued numbers for 2011.

There are loads of useful parts on this car to complete a "new" Superlight--including a well built Zetec. I don't believe the sump was damaged in this crash, the motor starts and sounds strong with no oil leaks. I haven't done any solid pricing, yet, but I expect it would probably take around $35K (including the cost of this car and all repair parts) to build what would otherwise cost north of $60K to do a scratch build.

[magnusfeuer]

I think you are on the right path with a new frame.

If you decide to do this, please post pictures as you progress. I'll help you setup hosting if you need.

/Magnus F.

[moosetestbestanden]

So the price is right is it? So you're thinking of spending $35,000 to build something quite close to what you have now are you?

You seem like a nice fella ta me. I'll tell ya what I'm gonna do...

I'm willing to sell you a brand spanking new 2.1L Raceco all steel big lumpy cams Duratec w/ throttle bodies, ecu & wiring harness, dry sump & tank, T9 5 speed & 3.62 LSD for $30,000. You save 5 large, gain about 2000 rpm, somewhere north of 80 hp and lose 40 Kg. - 50 kg. of unwanted cast iron fat in the process. C'mon down! Plug-n-Play - you can drive it away today!

But you have to promise to be careful on cold slicks.

[rzempel]

Where did I say that *I* was going to do this? :-) I didn't make an offer, and the crashed car is still available. I'm still considering if it's feasible and if it's a project I want to tackle. Fortunately for me, there's someone (maybe vincesf?) who called first and arranged an inspection some time next week. Everyone else (so far, just me) gets to wait until he buys it or passes.

[Sean]

After deciding to actually look for it (:rolleyes:), I was surprised to find the Imperial S3 replacement chassis on the Caterham Parts site listed for £3,800 before VAT, which is around $6,000 before shipping and customs. As always, paint would be extra. I believe the starter kit comes pre-wired, has the gas tank, a bonnet, and maybe a few other items, but I'm not sure - could all be verified with a call to England.

edit -- URL of Imperial replacement chassis: http://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/category.php?id_category=405

[Elv15]

Well, it seems that the best way to take advantage of this car is to buy a new rolling chassis. The rear suspension is probably all trashed, the front is suspect.

The part that makes me pause is the really expensive bits, like the transmission are of unknown status. Having to rebuild the transmission because of a broken tooth, or the LSD because of a trashed carrier takes a lot of value out of this deal.

[Doug Liedblad]

.

edit -- URL of Imperial replacement chassis: http://www.caterhamparts.co.uk/category.php?id_category=405

Did you note that it is currently out of stock?

$6,000 for chassis.
$1,000 or so for the front suspension
$1,000 or more for the rear, if Watts link.
$ 300 bonnet.
$2,000 for other trashed bits just a guess, but axles are $500.00 each.

Wheels,(does it have a street set of wheels?).

Plus shipping and moving the wreck.

Edited to say I forgot the carbon bits, carbon parts are 3x to 4x the cost of the fiberglass. Maybe less if you can get them from MOG.


As Tom points out the uncertain status of other bits. The transmission seems to be the (overly) expensive six speed. What if the case has a hairline crack? Randell reports engine running fine. Which should mean it's OK unless there are other issues like did the guy that built the engine really know what he was doing.

If you bought the car for $8-$10K you could be into it for $20K in short order and this assumes the driveline is all OK.

Plus Labor.

The more I think about this, you are really buying an engine and transmission with a few Caterham parts. Not a Caterham.

If you have the time and skill to repair what is there it might be OK and you might break even. If you need to farm any serious work out, it's a loser.

Start with a running used one or buy very cheap.

[Sean]

Did you note that it is currently out of stock?

Yes, but I suspect they are always out of stock, as they no longer sell S3 cars with an Imperial chassis. Probably built to order on an as-needed basis.

My point was that any potential buyer should consider the cost/benefit of the previously mentioned Starter Kit (which may or may not be offered in Imperial dimensions?) at somewhere near $13K vs. the replacement chassis at $6K + bonnet and aeroscreen. All the other stuff on the starter kit - fuel tank, fuel lines, brake lines, pedals, seatbelts, dash, instruments, wiring - is already on this crashed chassis, and should still be usable.
edit -- whether starter kit or replacement chassis, neither is supplied with suspension components.

On a side note, I have a friend who is starting to show serious interest in Caterhams, and when he asked me about this ad, I advised him to pass on this one. Not that I am an expert, but it seems like getting this particular car back on the road would not be a good introduction to Caterhams. It may be better suited for somebody skilled in nickel bronze welding or with intimate access to the race car fabrication community. IMHO.

[rzempel]

FWIW, Jon at CaterhamUSA says, "A new clad chassis with shipping to the US would be about $12k."

The front suspension actually looked fine--it was the steering rack that is a bit 'off.' It tracks side to side normally, but the whack knocked the wheels into huge (3-4") toe out. I couldn't test the transmission, but have no reason to disbelieve the seller's claim that he put in the clutch as soon as he started to spin. In that case, the transmission would be fine.

There is a reason (actually many of them) that his insurance wrote off the car rather than repairing it....

I'm about to head out the door to drive back up there. I might be able to call the seller and arrange another look if there's there anything specific on which you'd like more details.


Randall

[vincesf]

rzempel:

What interested me most was the great specs on the car and the price. It may be a good deal for someone who can do the work, but it is beyond my paygrade.

THANK YOU for taking a look at the car, as it looks like you did an outstanding job in determining what it needs.

vincesf

[rzempel]

Vincesf,

If you're more price driven and are OK with a salvage title, Caterham will sell just the rear frame. With that and a few replacement parts, you' be a long way towards being on the road. You could even do the skin yourself.

Randall

[vincesf]

Randall:

I am going to pass, but someone more mechanically inclined might find this a gem. Thank you again,

Vincesf