Curmbling brake pads.

[magnusfeuer]

I found the reason for the crappy brakes, the pads are crumbling. See attached photos. It looks almost like they are rusting away. The front pads (depicited) are really bad while the rear pads are somewhat less so, albeit no way acceptable. I have not been overheating the brakes. The brakes worked fine when I used the car last (in Oct-Nov). The calipers seemed fine and not stuck.

So two questions:

1) WTF is going on?

2) Does anyone have a complete set of pads to sell me while I wait for the upgraded pads to arrive from Caterham a month from now?

/Magnus F.

[moosetestbestanden]

1) You have just got to move away from the beach.

2) I haven't any spares. Sorry about that. Caterham usually isn't slow in my experience, although they lost power at Dartford this week past and may have some backlog.

Edited to add: Man, that is ugly. WTF indeed.

[slomove]

Man, that is bad. Are you sure you did not buy the "brown stuff" pads from Angus&Tessa on Blatchat:

http://www.mycaterham.com/mediac/400_0/media/DIR_39305/DIR_160616/pads-1.jpg

[Doug Liedblad]

Magnus

Do you have the vented front disks or the solid rotors?

If the solid rotors, I have a complete spare set. Not new but not much used either.

This company also should have them in stock.

http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/

I bought their rally / race pads and they worked OK for me.

You are welcome to try the ones I have first.

I may have the Porterfield front pads and stock Cateram rears.

Doug

[magnusfeuer]

Doug,

I have solid rotors and would be happy to buy your slightly used pair while waiting for Caterham to deliver.

Can I pick them up tomorrow (Sunday)?

/Magnus F.

[Doug Liedblad]

Magnus

Yes you can pick them up but you cannot buy them.

You are welcome to use them until you get new ones.

edited to say, you cannot buy them unless you figure out how to make them crumble too!

I bring them to track days in case they are needed by others.

I may also be a bit closer to you tomorrow AM, in Woodland Hills, so it will save you 20 miles each way. If I am going to be there it will be between 8 and 10 AM.

Call me if you have still have my number.

Also I need to go find them in the garage. FOUND!

Doug

[mav]

Magnus,

Not sure how long they have been in or how hard they have been used, but:

1. I did the same to a pair of std (Rear) pads in my SV in 10 laps of Knockhill, in the middle of winter. They were over heating and when I took them out they broke up...

2. I also mullered a set of Ferrrodo DS3000 I think they were - They broke up worse than the std pads.

I run the caterham 'big fronts' with std rears, ut upgraded pads. I use mintex 1144's all round and they last well.

Regards,

Martin

[moosetestbestanden]

Can I pick them up tomorrow (Sunday)?

So... now ready for a drive are we?:D

[magnusfeuer]

You bet.

I'll replace the brake fluid, but then I am good to go.

/Magnus F.

[magnusfeuer]

Martin:

It seems like it happens every now and then to stock pads. A search for 'crumbling pads' on blatchat.com gives a couple of hits.

/Magnus F.

[moosetestbestanden]

...I'll replace the brake fluid, but then I am good to go.

So, are you back on the road?

[jmb@freestoneprop.com]

I've gone through three sets of rear pads in the last year, and my most recent set of Mintex MDB 1287 M1202 0206 "green" compound pads are crumbling. Fronts are vented four pot Outlaw M-16 with Hawk "ferro carbon" racing pads "Blue" 9012 compound. Is there any other aftermarket source for carbon metalic racing pads other than Mintex?

Having disconected my emergency brake, checked for binding in my master cylinder piston/brake linkage and adjusting brake bias away from the rears by about 28%, I'm hoping that a good set of rear pads with compound comparable to my fronts will produce a more reasonable pad life expectancy.

Other Ideas?

[Doug Liedblad]

As Magnus points out this is a known issue with some cars. M. Murphy has had problems wearing out rears faster than fronts.

Other Caterham owners report the same problem on Blatchat. I have not had this problem. Is it the car or the driver??

I'm using Porterfield pads on my car with good life. I also have M16 Outlaws on the front and stock rears. My car is a standard front track with DeDion rear suspension.

I've the Porterfield numbers someplace and will post them when found.

Porterfield is local in So. Cal.

Doug

[Doug Liedblad]

I'm not sure of the Porterfield numbers but they can cross reference.

http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/

I use the R4-S which needs a lap to get hot and work well.

You might consider the R4 or R4-1 too.

Outlaw M-16 uses Performance friction # PFC 7754.16. or Hawk HB-237.

Stock Caterham Dedion EBC Part numbers are DP2617 rear and DP2114 Front. See the wiki under parts.

Note also that the pads may come in different thickness for the Outlaws.

http://www.porterfield-brakes.com/

Doug

[GWise]

It looks to me like the pads have glazed from excessive heat. What happens is when the pads are overheated, the resin (the matrix or binder that holds the friction material together) in the pad crystalize and become extremely brittle and therefore cause the padst o crumble.

On your next set of pads, I reccomend you ask the manufacturer if they're positively molded. This means that only one pad is made in it's mold at a time. Cheaper pads are often flash molded, where a tray of several pads are made at the same time.

If you've glazed the pads, it is also a good idea to change the rotors at the same time. I know this probably goes without saying but make sure to follow the pad manufacturer's break in procedures as well.

[Doug Liedblad]

I'm convinced there is a heat problem with the rears as the paint on my EBC Greenstuff pads burned off the rears while it never burned off the fronts.

I am planning on replacing the rear calipers but with what I am not yet sure. Wilwood or Outlaw.

Doug

[slomove]

I'm convinced there is a heat problem with the rears as the paint on my EBC Greenstuff pads burned off the rears while it never burned off the fronts.

I am planning on replacing the rear calipers but with what I am not yet sure. Wilwood or Outlaw.

Doug

The rear pads (also Greenstuff) on my car did not burn but they definitely wear twice as fast as the front pads. Kind of understandable since the rear pads have a much smaller surface/mass then the fronts.

Your suggested change makes sense if the pads for Wilwood/Outlaws are a bit more substantial than the ones you have (all supposed the burning is not related to improper brake bias).

Maybe I should have bought a newer Birkin vintage...they come with factory installed Outlaw brakes.

Gert

[jmb@freestoneprop.com]

Doug;
Thanks for your response to my message of Feb 3. I've been away for a few days. I really appreciate your suggestion for an alternative pad supplier (I just paid about $125 for another set of Mintex Greens), I'll probably give them a try when these wear out. I was advised by Roger Krause (a race tire dealer, long time supporter of SCCA, and sponsor of a number of race cars) to install an in-line, rear brake delay device (LBS-1 made by DPI Racing, online at dpiracingproducts.com), which essentially blunts the initial brake pressure impact on the rears, causing the front brakes to bear the brunt of the initial braking and eliminating rear brake lock-up. He said that in his experience brake bias valves are notoriously difficult to dial-in and that rear braking delay devices do a good job of making up for imprecise biasing, and may also resolve my problem with excessive wear.

One other anomily of my rear brake problems that I failed to mention is that the inboard surface of my rear calipers on each side of the car have rubbed against the adjacent trailing arm to such an extent that they have warn an inch long and 1/8" groove into the arm. (Note my car is a Roadsport SV with wide track De Dion rear suspension.) I've ground down the offending caliper surfaces by almost 1/4" and smoothed and rounded the edges. I did this work prior to changing my last two sets of pads, and the contact seems to have abated, so it wouldn't seem to be part of the wear problem, but troubling nonetheless. I've checked every conceivable aspect of my rear suspension, and conclude that this rubbing must be a function of the additional lateral torque imparted from my use of ten inch wide, rear race slicks.

I contacted Outlaw regarding rear brake calipers, and they say that they don't make them. What I think we need is an aftermarket source of rotors (I'm on my third set in a year) and calipers that will fit standard De Dion ears. I have ears for both radial ply tires and bias ply, but I fear that the tight clearances between the caliper and trailing arm, and the design of the DeDion Ear is going to make it hard to figure out what aftermarket parts will work, but it would sure be nice to have complimentary pad compounds front and rear. One further wrinkle for some guys will be that the liklihood of finding rear calipers, with a parking brake feature compatible with Caterham's, may be a real stretch. (I think I mentioned that I've removed mine.)

If you hear of any aftermarket brake systems that work without a bunch of customization I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks again. Marty